Comments on: John Piper and Visual Worship… http://www.theworkisneverdone.com/2009/07/john-piper-and-visual-worship/ church. life. discipleship. Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:08:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Jb http://www.theworkisneverdone.com/2009/07/john-piper-and-visual-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-15 Jb Wed, 05 Aug 2009 23:00:20 +0000 http://refurbishedone.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-15 Remarkable how one mans' view can spark such a controversy. The beauty of free interpretation is the ugliness of free interpretation. Spiritual matters have essentials and non-essentials.. this is a non-essential. The devil again succeeds to dis-unify the body. Remarkable how one mans’ view can spark such a controversy. The beauty of free interpretation is the ugliness of free interpretation. Spiritual matters have essentials and non-essentials.. this is a non-essential. The devil again succeeds to dis-unify the body.

]]> By: Scott Whitacre http://www.theworkisneverdone.com/2009/07/john-piper-and-visual-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-14 Scott Whitacre Sun, 19 Jul 2009 06:41:25 +0000 http://refurbishedone.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-14 Hey Brian, I attend a church where the Pastor does use powerpoint to illustrate his expository teachings, however we're not talking major artistry. PK certainly engages my mind, but to deny the Word of God taught like that doesn't engage the heart and soul is wrong. In fact the only thing that is required to touch and engage the heart and soul is His Word whether it be teaching or in a video or song. I believe that is the only thing that matters. I would guess that the concern of Piper is the unfortunate problem of seeker sensitive churches using these same kinds of things without giving the whole council of God. In these places worship, serving, and the Word become secondary to the show and neglect teaching to be holy and set apart. I've never been to your church so I am not accusing your church of being seeker sensitive. I think my biggest concern with anything that has major production like that is exactly what is bringing the people to church after the first time. If it's anything other than serving, worship, and the Word it's not a good thing. Peace out- Scott. Hey Brian,
I attend a church where the Pastor does use powerpoint to illustrate his expository teachings, however we’re not talking major artistry. PK certainly engages my mind, but to deny the Word of God taught like that doesn’t engage the heart and soul is wrong. In fact the only thing that is required to touch and engage the heart and soul is His Word whether it be teaching or in a video or song. I believe that is the only thing that matters.

I would guess that the concern of Piper is the unfortunate problem of seeker sensitive churches using these same kinds of things without giving the whole council of God. In these places worship, serving, and the Word become secondary to the show and neglect teaching to be holy and set apart. I’ve never been to your church so I am not accusing your church of being seeker sensitive.

I think my biggest concern with anything that has major production like that is exactly what is bringing the people to church after the first time. If it’s anything other than serving, worship, and the Word it’s not a good thing.

Peace out- Scott.

]]> By: noob http://www.theworkisneverdone.com/2009/07/john-piper-and-visual-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-13 noob Fri, 17 Jul 2009 18:22:43 +0000 http://refurbishedone.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-13 The thing that bothered me was that he said "it’s going to communicate that preaching is weak, preaching doesn’t save, preaching doesn’t hold, but entertainment does." Preaching doesn't save anyone.....Jesus does. And the truth and message of Jesus can be just as easily communicated through preaching as it can through drama, video, music, books, arts, and tons of other mediums. The thing that bothered me was that he said “it’s going to communicate that preaching is weak, preaching doesn’t save, preaching doesn’t hold, but entertainment does.” Preaching doesn’t save anyone…..Jesus does. And the truth and message of Jesus can be just as easily communicated through preaching as it can through drama, video, music, books, arts, and tons of other mediums.

]]> By: Jason P. http://www.theworkisneverdone.com/2009/07/john-piper-and-visual-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-12 Jason P. Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:38:05 +0000 http://refurbishedone.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-12 Brian - I wholeheartedly agree with your points here. I read Piper's comments first, and was also upset that he would so casually dismiss a medium that is used very effectively today to reach a great number of people. Also, as you pointed out, calling one method of communication "ordained" implies that other methods are not, and this is patently false. Jesus used many different avenues to teach, including demonstrating by his actions (sometimes unaccompanied by words) a Biblical truth. We do ourselves and the world a disservice when we try to exclude some methods of communication as "not holy." Honestly, I think this is partly a generational thing. John Piper is an old man, and he still thinks like someone from his generation. There's nothing wrong with his approach, if you're trying to reach the elderly for Christ. But, if we want to reach this generation, we need to expand our horizons a bit beyond the traditional soapbox preaching. Nice response! You should definitely send it to him! Brian – I wholeheartedly agree with your points here. I read Piper’s comments first, and was also upset that he would so casually dismiss a medium that is used very effectively today to reach a great number of people. Also, as you pointed out, calling one method of communication “ordained” implies that other methods are not, and this is patently false. Jesus used many different avenues to teach, including demonstrating by his actions (sometimes unaccompanied by words) a Biblical truth. We do ourselves and the world a disservice when we try to exclude some methods of communication as “not holy.”

Honestly, I think this is partly a generational thing. John Piper is an old man, and he still thinks like someone from his generation. There’s nothing wrong with his approach, if you’re trying to reach the elderly for Christ. But, if we want to reach this generation, we need to expand our horizons a bit beyond the traditional soapbox preaching.

Nice response! You should definitely send it to him!

]]> By: Holt http://www.theworkisneverdone.com/2009/07/john-piper-and-visual-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-11 Holt Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:17:57 +0000 http://refurbishedone.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-11 Wow, first of all I can't believe this has seen so much traffic today. Cool. Anyways @Evan, I think you're missing the point. Piper doesn't add balance in the last paragraph, he adds to his position that drama and video don't belong in the Sunday morning service. This is my primary point of contention. Preaching is NOT a more effective medium for communicating to EVERY person (and I would take care claiming one medium is ordained by God while another is not). Preaching will certainly reach a mass audience and should be continued with vigor and passion. Unfortunately, preaching will always come up short in some areas and drama and video should be used to communicate God's truths right along side of solid preaching. I agree that solid preaching should always be the center of a solid worship service, but it should be accompanied by excellent use of song and the arts. An addendum to my blog post: Drama and video can be especially abused to provide only entertainment (although many preachers also teach this way) and to use those mediums without content is wholly inappropriate on a Sunday morning. In this way, I agree totally with Piper. Don't do it unless you've got the truth on your side. Wow, first of all I can’t believe this has seen so much traffic today. Cool.

Anyways @Evan,

I think you’re missing the point. Piper doesn’t add balance in the last paragraph, he adds to his position that drama and video don’t belong in the Sunday morning service. This is my primary point of contention. Preaching is NOT a more effective medium for communicating to EVERY person (and I would take care claiming one medium is ordained by God while another is not). Preaching will certainly reach a mass audience and should be continued with vigor and passion. Unfortunately, preaching will always come up short in some areas and drama and video should be used to communicate God’s truths right along side of solid preaching. I agree that solid preaching should always be the center of a solid worship service, but it should be accompanied by excellent use of song and the arts.

An addendum to my blog post:
Drama and video can be especially abused to provide only entertainment (although many preachers also teach this way) and to use those mediums without content is wholly inappropriate on a Sunday morning. In this way, I agree totally with Piper. Don’t do it unless you’ve got the truth on your side.

]]> By: Evan http://www.theworkisneverdone.com/2009/07/john-piper-and-visual-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-10 Evan Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:39:29 +0000 http://refurbishedone.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-10 So did you miss the next to last paragraph where he adds in the balance to his position? He's not saying you can't speak a message through drama and video. He's saying it can't replace preaching. It's obvious that narratives can be acted out through visuals but it's even more obvious that MORE message can be packed into a sermon. I believe this is why God chose to write a book instead of waiting 2000 years to make a movie. The acts of reading and hearing impact the brain differently than does seeing the message being acted out. Watching a narrative take place requires more time and leaves more holes for misunderstanding. This is why Piper is stressing that preaching is more effective than visuals and is a medium ordained by God. "Faith comes by hearing..." And for the record, I'm a full-time church media director. So did you miss the next to last paragraph where he adds in the balance to his position? He’s not saying you can’t speak a message through drama and video. He’s saying it can’t replace preaching.

It’s obvious that narratives can be acted out through visuals but it’s even more obvious that MORE message can be packed into a sermon. I believe this is why God chose to write a book instead of waiting 2000 years to make a movie. The acts of reading and hearing impact the brain differently than does seeing the message being acted out. Watching a narrative take place requires more time and leaves more holes for misunderstanding. This is why Piper is stressing that preaching is more effective than visuals and is a medium ordained by God.

“Faith comes by hearing…”

And for the record, I’m a full-time church media director.

]]> By: Zach http://www.theworkisneverdone.com/2009/07/john-piper-and-visual-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-9 Zach Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:50:41 +0000 http://refurbishedone.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-9 I'm going to take the middle ground on this one, as someone who enjoys and finds some skill in both visual arts and preaching. I think it's pretty clear that God has called the church to be speaking the truth of the Bible to the people around us. I believe that preaching is the way to do that. Jesus speaks over and over of preaching the gospel (Mt 24.14, Mk 3.14, Lk 9.2 are 3 of many). Paul commands Timothy to "Preach the Word." (2 Timothy 2.4) It seems that God has placed a very high value on the art of preaching. However, I also believe that God has gifted people (like you) to be able to use the arts to help us see our need and what God has done in a way that differs from preaching. In all honesty, I believe that preaching should be the emphasis of the church, but I believe that music/drama/videos, etc. can be powerful, powerful aides in helping us learn who God is and what he's done. I’m going to take the middle ground on this one, as someone who enjoys and finds some skill in both visual arts and preaching.

I think it’s pretty clear that God has called the church to be speaking the truth of the Bible to the people around us. I believe that preaching is the way to do that. Jesus speaks over and over of preaching the gospel (Mt 24.14, Mk 3.14, Lk 9.2 are 3 of many). Paul commands Timothy to “Preach the Word.” (2 Timothy 2.4) It seems that God has placed a very high value on the art of preaching.

However, I also believe that God has gifted people (like you) to be able to use the arts to help us see our need and what God has done in a way that differs from preaching.

In all honesty, I believe that preaching should be the emphasis of the church, but I believe that music/drama/videos, etc. can be powerful, powerful aides in helping us learn who God is and what he’s done.

]]> By: Ge-Anne http://www.theworkisneverdone.com/2009/07/john-piper-and-visual-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-8 Ge-Anne Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:23:03 +0000 http://refurbishedone.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-8 I wholeheartedly agree with you. Jesus used parables because they work on so many levels. People visualize stories they hear (Ask anyone who grew up before music videos--those things ruined our mental images of the songs and many people complained about them at first!). Newer generations embrace a multi-sensory approach and there is nothing unbiblical about that--as long as the people who are performing are doing this unto the Lord. Which opens up another can of worms...accountability for not only the pastors/preachers, but also the worship teams, drama teams, technicians, etc. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Jesus used parables because they work on so many levels. People visualize stories they hear (Ask anyone who grew up before music videos–those things ruined our mental images of the songs and many people complained about them at first!).
Newer generations embrace a multi-sensory approach and there is nothing unbiblical about that–as long as the people who are performing are doing this unto the Lord.

Which opens up another can of worms…accountability for not only the pastors/preachers, but also the worship teams, drama teams, technicians, etc.

]]> By: Jimmy Densmore http://www.theworkisneverdone.com/2009/07/john-piper-and-visual-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-7 Jimmy Densmore Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:15:56 +0000 http://refurbishedone.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-7 I hope you sent John Piper a copy of this! Good stuff Brian! Proud to be your apprentice...lol! I hope you sent John Piper a copy of this! Good stuff Brian! Proud to be your apprentice…lol!

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